Jesus: A Modern Sokratic Dialogue by Bryan Caplan Characters in the Dialogue: Sokrates Lucretius, young student of Sokrates Jesus Paul, apostle of Jesus The Scene: Classical Athens Section 1. Meeting in Athens LUCRETIUS: I hear that the man from Jerusalem has arrived, Sokrates. The one whose followers so loudly denounce our city. SOKRATES: And me as well, I'm told. My fellow Athenians dub me a gadfly, but these followers of Jesus hate me far more bitterly. LUCRETIUS: How strange, then, Sokrates, that this Jesus has come to speak with you. Perhaps he's not like his followers. [Enter Jesus and Paul.] SOKRATES: I would bid you welcome to our fair city, sirs, but my eagerness for philosophy overcomes me. Many, many people have told me that you have knowledge of all things. I cannot approach that level of insight, but I am wise enough to at least realize my ignorance. JESUS: Many thanks for your welcome, then. You seem to know a great deal about me, but I've heard only of your wisdom and your modesty, Sokrates. PAUL: And his impiety, Lord! Why must we stop here, master? We've nothing to gain from these faithless ones. JESUS: Patience, Paul. What harm can come to good or truth through free discussion? Put aside then your prejudices, Paul, and recognize wisdom wherever it may lie, even in an opponent. SOKRATES: I beg your pardon, but I wasn't aware that we were opponents. First we must hear your teachings, then examine them, then support or oppose them as the case may be. If I may be so bold, I'd like to start on a question that's challenged me before. Section 2. The Question of Knowledge LUCRETIUS: Would that be the question of knowledge, Sokrates? SOKRATES: You guessed correctly, young Lucretius, which makes me think I've been over this question a few too many times. But having never been satisfied in the past, I must try once more. Tell me, Jesus, what is knowledge? I've heard that you answer that knowledge is faith, but I want to hear you state it in your own way to avoid any misunderstanding. JESUS: Dear Sokrates, you've heard correctly. Over-proud men say that reason gives them knowledge, but I say that true knowledge comes from God, and that God sends that knowledge by faith. SOKRATES: Please slow down, Jesus, if you wouldn't mind. My mind is a little slow, and I can only think on one issue at a time. Let's back up and make sure that we're answering the right question. My original query was, what knowledge is. But you seem to have told me instead where knowledge comes from. PAUL: My master Jesus' intent was obvious enough. He meant that knowledge is faith, as was plain enough to any listener not trying to distort his words. You Greeks blather on and on about words; but what do they matter? It's the spirit that matters. LUCRETIUS: When words are imprecise, so is thought; or is rigor too difficult for you men from Jerusalem? You talk a lot about "the spirit"; but it seems to me like you possess the spirit of angry beasts and lack the spirit of good sense. SOKRATES: Hold, Lucretius. Paul's answer was fair enough, if his expression a little provocative. Is Paul's statement what you had in mind, Jesus? JESUS: It was. SOKRATES: Very well then; we have a starting point. Knowledge is faith. And may I ask more about the nature of faith? For some say that faith is trust in God, others that faith is mystical intuition, still others that faith is belief in the absurd and the impossible. JESUS: You Athenians are fond of distinctions, I see. Well, I suppose then that I am with the first group, the one that holds that faith is trust in God. SOKRATES: Very good. Now like I said my mind is not so quick, and I may need a few questions to grasp your meaning clearly. Knowledge, you say, is faith; and faith is trust in God? JESUS: Exactly. SOKRATES: How then, if I may ask, do we come to know about God? JESUS: By faith, naturally. SOKRATES: But in order to trust someone, and in particular to equate that trust with knowledge, we would surely have to know of his existence. JESUS: Doubtlessly, Sokrates. Are questions like these the ones that make my followers hate you so? They seem mild enough, though perhaps they cost a lot of time compared to the benefit they bring. SOKRATES: Their mildness and their benefit we shall see in the end. So you concede that before we can trust someone, we must know of their existence? JESUS: Yes, yes. SOKRATES: And we know of God's existence by faith? PAUL: As Jesus already told you. SOKRATES: And faith is trust in God? PAUL: Yes! Isn't one answer enough? SOKRATES: Perhaps, Paul. Forgive me, Jesus, but I am puzzled. For you have told me that before we could trust someone, we would have to know of their existence; and you have told me that faith is trust in God; and you have told me that we know of God by faith. I am afraid we are in a vicious circle here; for unless we knew of God by some way other than faith, we could not use faith to establish his existence. JESUS: I am not sure I understand. LUCRETIUS: Allow me to clarify. Sokrates just pointed out that your reasoning was circular and inconsistent. You use faith to define knowledge, and God to define faith. But your system doesn't permit knowledge of God, since knowledge of God has to come before faith. At this point, you have a few choices. You can either decide that knowledge isn't faith, or that faith isn't trust in God, or that you don't need to know that someone exists in order to trust him. PAUL: Even the Athenian boys are filled with sin and impiety! You would do better to have more faith and question it less. JESUS: Gentle Paul, the boy's manner may be impious, but I detect no wickedness in him. Asking questions is the way of Athens, not of Jerusalem; but since we are in Athens, why not show them that we can do as well as they at their own game? Lucretius, I trust, has laid down my options fairly, has he not, Sokrates? SOKRATES: I think he has, Jesus. So which premise do you choose to cast aside, so we can get back down the track of knowledge? JESUS: I leapt too quickly to affirm that faith is trust in God. Faith is broader and deeper than trust in God alone. Faith is what gives us trust in God, but its limits are so much broader. PAUL: All that proceeds from doubt is sin, and all that proceeds from faith is righteous. Faith justifies us and cleanses us of our sin, the sin that all of us bear. LUCRETIUS: The sin that all of you bear is vagueness of speech and laziness of thought. Why don't you keep to the subject? S0KRATES: Perhaps Jesus would be good enough to keep to it if you would only let him. I believe that he was just going to revise his definition of faith, for we had concluded that faith was not trust in God. Do you then say that it is belief in the absurd and the impossible? JESUS: No, no. Faith teaches us nothing absurd, but only simple and sublime truths. But I think, Sokrates, that you mentioned another view of faith. SOKRATES: Yes, there are some who say that faith is mystical intuition, although I confess that what they mean by this is far from clear. PAUL: Well, intuition is simply knowledge that does not proceed indirectly, as in a deductive argument; but instead it proceeds directly, by examining a premise itself. LUCRETIUS: Well-spoken, Paul. So what you mean is that sometimes, we learn that something is true because we deduce it from other premises which we know to be true. But this could not always be the case, because ultimately we must know some premises to be true which are not derived from other premises. Indeed, since proof begins with the most evident truths and moves to less well- known ones, it follows that what we know best of all cannot be proven. Nor indeed would such a proof be necessary, for it would lead to an infinite regress. SOKRATES: I fear that Lucretius may be putting his own answer into the mouths of our guests. Tell me, Jesus, do you mean now to defend the view that faith is mystical intuition? JESUS: Most certainly. And I think that Paul spoke well, as did Lucretius. SOKRATES: Perhaps. But as you notice, both Paul and Lucretius described the faculty of intuition, and Lucretius went further and argued that we did indeed possess it. JESUS: Truly they did, Sokrates. Did your own pupil misspeak? SOKRATES: Perhaps, though I found nothing in his statement to criticize at the moment. But Paul and Lucretius told me only of intuition; but you said that faith is mystical intuition. You have identified knowledge with only the narrower species, and not the whole genus. I confess that I am at a loss to explain how the mystical intuition differs from intuition proper. JESUS: Mystical intuition goes beyond human reason. It reveals things to us that human reason unaided could never see. But I see that you will say that I am telling you about mystical intuition rather than defining it. So let me say that mystical intuition is intuition which operates under the inspiration of divine guidance. PAUL: And God forbid that His guidance should ever be taken from us, as it has been taken from these Greeks. SOKRATES: I'll welcome God's guidance or anyone else's, as soon as I'm convinced He knows where He's going any better than I do. But let us focus on Jesus' second definition. Could you explain for us, Jesus, what the "inspiration of divine guidance" is? JESUS: It is when God leads us to truths that we could not see on our own. SOKRATES: And how does God lead us to these truths? JESUS: He puts a holy feeling into us when we encounter his truths. SOKRATES: And this "holy feeling" - it is knowledge, or, as it seems to be, one of the passions? JESUS: The holy feeling leads to knowledge, but you are right that the feeling is not itself knowledge. SOKRATES: What you are saying seems strange to me. I had always assumed that the passions needed to be checked by the intellect, for they often lead us in the wrong direction. PAUL: Of course, the weak mortal passions need to be controlled; but not the sacred passion of love of God and His works. SOKRATES: But would you not agree, Paul, that the faithful of other religions have passions very much like yours? PAUL: [hesitant] No... They have deceptive feelings. SOKRATES: But were you not at one time a traditional Jew rather than a follower of Jesus? PAUL: Yes... SOKRATES: And did you not experience religious passion before you met Jesus? PAUL: In a way... SOKRATES: And did your passion give you truth then? PAUL: No, it led me to horribly struggle against the goodness of Jesus' message. SOKRATES: Because at that time your feelings were deceptive? PAUL: Yes. SOKRATES: Did your feelings feel deceptive at the time? PAUL: No. SOKRATES: Nor less intense? PAUL: Perhaps... SOKRATES: So would it be fair to say that the only difference is that your passions were different at different times? JESUS: Let me spare Paul and try to answer for him. What is your objection, Sokrates? SOKRATES: Well, I think that I shall drop this line of questioning and get on to my real objection. JESUS: Which would be? SOKRATES: You have explained that mystical intuition is intuition which operates under the direction of divine guidance. JESUS: I have. SOKRATES: And without this divine direction, we should still lack knowledge. JESUS: Correct. SOKRATES: Which means that if we considered these claims bereft of divine direction, we would not see their truth. JESUS: True enough, Sokrates. SOKRATES: So in themselves these claims do not seem evident to our reason. Do they seem to be false, or merely undecided? PAUL: Of course they seem false to your sinful minds! SOKRATES: Does Paul's answer accord with yours, Jesus? JESUS: No, I would say that they merely seem undecided to the intellect bereft of divine guidance. SOKRATES: So they are never contrary to human reason? JESUS: I should think not. LUCRETIUS: But what of your doctrines of the "divine mysteries"? Do you not call them mysteries because they seem to human reason to be false? JESUS: Well, we must not be presumptuous and assume that our intellects are superior to God's, young Lucretius. LUCRETIUS: Naturally not -- assuming that God's existence and teachings are already known. But just as before, you and Paul are arguing in a circle. JESUS: How so? LUCRETIUS: You begin by saying that knowledge is faith, and that faith is mystical intuition. You add that mystical intuition gives us knowledge of claims that seem unclear or even - as you tacitly admit - false. When we protest, you instruct us that we must not place our intellects above God's. But unfortunately, in order for your argument to work, your claims would have to seem neither indifferent nor false, but true. Or in other words, in order to make us believe in your "mysteries," you must convince us in a way which is not itself mysterious; for otherwise, your view simply becomes the absurd one that we should first believe something that seems false, and then other seemingly unclear and false claims will seem to be true. SOKRATES: I think that Lucretius speaks for myself as well. PAUL: Both of you will burn in hell for your lies! Why can't you simply have faith in God's word? SOKRATES: Perhaps we would, if only we understood what the two of you meant by "faith." PAUL: "Faith means the assurance of what we hope for; it is our conviction about things that we cannot see." SOKRATES: And I assume that you include not only literal sight, but the intellectual sight we possess through our reason? PAUL: I do. SOKRATES: And could faith give you conviction about things that we seem to see to be false. PAUL: If God says it, then I believe it. He created my reason to be subserviant to him. LUCRETIUS: So if God said you were ten feet tall, would you believe it? PAUL: I would. LUCRETIUS: And if God said that doubt was sin, would you believe it? PAUL: I would and I do. LUCRETIUS: And if God said that two and two make five, would you believe it? PAUL: Without hesitation. LUCRETIUS: So you seem to have finally leapt to the third view of faith. JESUS: Which view was that? LUCRETIUS: It was the view that says that faith is belief in the absurd and the impossible. JESUS: Now I would not want to say that. LUCRETIUS: Ah, but I think you must. Did Paul answer my questions as you would have? JESUS: Yes. LUCRETIUS: So if God said that two and two make five, you would believe it? JESUS: If God said it, then I would. But why would God say something so clearly false? LUCRETIUS: But you have no standard outside of your God's commands to judge them! So your own view requires that you must give your believe even to the most absurd and impossible claims. PAUL: And why should that bother us? Why should the "wisdom of the world" matter to us, Jesus, when we have received our instructions directly from God? We must not let their earthly standards infect our certainty in the Word of God! Tell them, Jesus! Tell them! [Jesus seems troubled.] Section 3. Conclusion PAUL: What is happening to you, dear precious Jesus? Why are you testing me? JESUS: Testing you, Paul? PAUL: Yes, that must be it! All this has been arranged to test my faith in you and God. Now I see. But I pass the test, Jesus! I believe in you with all my heart and all my soul, and no mortal words will ever sway me! Let us begone with their vicious, wicked Athenians, and speak to those who are open to the truth. LUCRETIUS: "Open to the truth"? It is you are closed to the truth, Paul, by your own words. JESUS: If you say that, you cannot know Paul. No one loves truth as he does. LUCRETIUS: Loves truth, you say? Paul despises truth. He loves only his faith, no matter what lies it tells. JESUS: Faith does not lie, young man! What have you been teaching these young men of Athens, Sokrates? Perhaps Paul is right to say that you wean these babes of Athens on irreligion! SOKRATES: I train them to raise questions about all things, including religion, if that is what you mean. PAUL: His own words convict him of hatred of God. Let us go speak to the humble people who will listen to us, Jesus. JESUS: Very well, Paul. We will pray for your soul Lucretius. LUCRETIUS: And what of Sokrates' soul? PAUL: We shall pray that it burns in hell! [Jesus and Paul leave.] LUCRETIUS: They seemed to be rather wicked men after all, didn't they, Sokrates? SOKRATES: That would bring us to the question of virtue. But I suspect that you would turn out to be right. LUCRETIUS: So they have gone to speak to the people of Athens. Do you think that they will find any converts? SOKRATES: Quite possibly they shall. LUCRETIUS: What will become of the world if their ideas spread? SOKRATES: The prospect is too frightening for me to contemplate. What would you say, Lucretius? LUCRETIUS: If their ideas spread to enough of the people, the whole world will become the hell to which they damned you. SOKRATES: Dear Lucretius, I suspect that you are correct.